How to help someone

Hi,

   I have a friend who is having a problem; in fact, its heaps of problems.According to friends , he leads a screwed up life.It was heard that he was not brought up properly when young,there were numerous fights in his home and he was slightly autistic.
  He is very quiet and he does things haphazardly and he is lazy.
  He has taken refuge in TBS, but, alas, it is not a story of a person turning over to a new leaf.I tried to get him to chant GM's mantra, well, he does chant, but, its not really regular.
He would chant one day and stop five days.He always compliains that there are too many thoughts in his head and
he always says that life is meaningless, that he is facing this problem, that problem.
    He also has health problems, last I heard, he said that he has a problem with part of his left brain.
    I heard from another friend that he is a very pessimistic person.
    At times, he is very angry and always asks why is it that he must go through all this and that it isn't fair.
    Actually, I think that sometimes he is just plain selfish.Some of the problems are caused by him and yet he blames it on other people.
    So far , I have been trying to talk to him,but in vain.
    He is quite pitiful actually.In fact, he is much older than me.
     Could anyone tell me how to help?

Regards
Xin Kai

I fully agree with lyciss. I like to help people, but I wont help those who dont want to help themselves. Effort became futile.

One's attitude about himself is very important. I also  agree with lyciss about seeking for a professional help. Most people are embarrassed about it. But, throught a psychologist one can see things more positiviely and optimistically.

If not, Xin Kai, you may suggest him to read some good books. Books help...but, from your posts, I feel that he doesnt even want to help himself.

Mimosa

does he really listen to what you say? sometimes, you can tell whether someone is just patronising you or really listening to u. If he does the former, maybe you can show how disappointed you are -- that should jolt him out of his self-imposed prison...cos he would realise he'd just hurt someone who cares...

if he persists in his attitude, you can leave him alone for some time until he comes back to you voluntarily. Serves two purposes: let him take stock of his life and after he has done so, he will be more committed...

my humble opinion.

Serves two purposes: let him take stock of his life and after he has done so, he will be more committed
## smart! that is a smart approach!

Mimosa

Hi, all,

   Wow, I am stumped by the amount of replies.
   It is good to see that everyone tries to help someone.:))
   Lyciss, I do agree that he needs a reason to be here.
   He says that he is all alone in this world, no friends, no family.
   However, I do have reservations abt his illness.I think , it is caused by his mental state.
   Still, it is a factor to consider, he is getting his X rays done on his head, maybe results would come out soon.
    Lyciss, perhaps I am in need of developing such positive power too.:))
   Sometimes I do feel pessimistic too.:))
   Mimosa, I have recently read " The Power of Positive living"
by Norman Vincent Peale.It's a Christian book, but I think it is good.Do you have any titles to recommend?
    Don't know abt psychological help though, it seems like too expensive for him.Do you think a counsellor from a local charity could help?
    Jessie, I don't know whether he listens to me or not,I would have to see him a few more times before I know.  
     In any case, I am rather busy nowadays, so I am already " distanced" from him.
   Well, I should add a prayer for him during my practice.
    You know, I hoped you don't call me selfish, but, I heard in some TBS circles,if you help someone, his karma would be transferred to you.
   I personally have this experience, my roommate, has a on going backache problem(slipped disc, I think). I feel pity on him and I muttered to myself that perhaps I should chant 1000 x Unisa Vijaya short mantra for him and his debtors.Then, I forgotten abt it. The next day, I woked up in a terrible mental state,my emotions are uncontrollable and rippling through.I had uncontrollable anger and all manners of thoughts run through my head.
   Then , late in the day, I remember what I muttered to myself and I began to suspect that this is what is causing me problem.So , I went to chant the 1000x short mantra and those emotions left me the next day.
   It sound selfish, but, say if I am not in pretty good shape myself, how should I help?

Regards
Xin Kai

You can help, but dun take it upon yourself. for isntance, you can ask a master to help. YOu can ask taht afflicted person to chant instead. You can also ask Amitabha to take over the matter just before you chant....

Remember what masters used to say at the start of ceremonies, "Golden Mother of Primodial Pond commands...." ? That is asking Golden Mother to take charge of things... (have to be sincere. though i believe masters need to have a certain amount of protective "power" before they conduct ceremonies too. so i think it'd better for u to ask ur fren to chant for himself instead)

There are many ways to help.

my humble opnion.


:)

om guru liansheng siddhi hum. may Grandmaster take charge of matters... ;D

Hi,

  Jessie,

   This is great, I never thought of using the phrase" Let the Buddhas and Bodhisattavas take charge " before.
    I think I would use it next time.:))
    Anyway, it is not possible for my room mate to chant,he is a Catholic.


Regards
Xin Kai

ONE more thing about helping people out (i mean, in terms of chanting for others):

always make sure you are able to handle the consequences; if not, always approach someone who can (such as a master).

TRUE STORY:
i have a fren who went to his fren's house to do some chanting, cos' his fren complained that it was spooky. After the whole thing, my fren suffers from nightmares in which some spirits were chasing after him. Luckily, in his dreams, his Vajra Protector came and help him out. Apparently, his fren had inadvertently offended someone else, who then cast a spell. By chanting in this fren's house, my fren was foiling the spellcaster's efforts. He became the target instead.

MORAL of the story:
dun go about helping people unless you protect yourself first. Be sure that this protection is enuff to protect you (usually based on how well you have been cultivating). Otherwise, you can always approach Masters, etc.

Xin Kai, I hope you will take care of yourself! Even if you say, "May Buddha/Boddhisattva take charge", one may not nec have enough cultivation to "reach" them yet (the Masters are different; they already have responses). Just take care...

##go about helping people unless you protect yourself #first. Be

I can not agree with you more on that. I once had a very similar experience. Fortunately, I am mean enough to kick out the evil spirits. But, still gave me enough headache!!

Now, if people ask for help, I ask them to do their own prayer.
If they dont want to it, then nothing I can do about it.

Mimosa

XIN KAI,

Could u give assurance you won't do anything rash?!

me worried for u!

hi,

 Well, Mimosa and Jessie, thanks for yr advice.
 My story was a unique case( to me).I didn't know that What I muttered in my head could have so much effect and that the debtor spirits on his body actually heard me.
  The thing is , this mantra works!!
  After I chanted 1000x ,the next day, I felt much better and I was amazed by it.
   I know that I shouldn't do this kind of thing for others.I have seen and heard such stories from my fellow Dharma Brothers and sisters in Singapore.Their stories are even more
amazing: they could get ill or hindrances just by recommending mantras to the person afflicted with problems.It seems that the debtor spirits on those persons would not let go of them and if someone comes to offer a
way out , they would go after that person. I have even heard stories that , always before a Dharma ceremony, if you are a member who filled up application forms for others,or if you are one of the volunteers for the Dharma ceremony, you would inevitably get sick , have bad luck , meet with small mishaps, etc.
    You would recover only after the dharma ceremony.
    It seems that we have to shoulder some of the collective karma forces of those attending the ceremonies.
     Relax,  guys , I wouldn't want trouble too.:)))


Regards
Xin Kai

:)
Xin Kai -

"if you help someone, his karma would be transferred to you."

The Law of Karma has many ramifications - if someone needs help, you could help them, and you don't, that has pretty straight-forward negative karma attached to it, too.   Intention is important with karma - you intend well, karma tends to be good.  You intend to let someone suffer, that comes back when you need help.  Good action begins with good thought.

I don't think the moral of your experience with the mantra you almost didn't chant is not that you shouldn't help people, but that you should follow through on your good intentions.  You have a good heart, a rare thing.  "Under-promise and over-deliver" is mundane advice, but is not a bad way to go.  Sounds like those debtors heard your intent to chant as a promise, and were upset until you delivered.  You must have developed some powerful thoughts.

In this world, I don't think we have to go finding more reasons not to help people.  Sentient beings need help!  But if someone is not asking for help, then most of what you can do will not be help anyway .. it will be rejected.  Set a good example, they will take it as criticism; be obtimistic, they will compensate by being more negative!  So you are left with "expedient means" - figuring out how to give them what they need while they think they are getting what they think they want.  It helps to be a Master here!

What does GM say about chanting for others?

On that other thread of thought - Norman Vincent Peale, etc. - there is a more up-to-date book without any Christianity attached that I can recommend - "Feeling Good".  The book costs much less than psychotherapy!

http://www.webheights.net/depression/burns/fg.htm

There is a chapter for Mimosa on overcoming perfectionism!
There is a companion book, also by David D Burns, MD: "The Feeling Good Handbook", that is also excellent.

Why am I still awake?

yours truly,
lian hua dance
:)

:(    .....  oops!


:)     ... Ah!

Hi everyone,
    great conversation topic... i do believe a bit of karma goes towards the "helper" and relieves that equal amount as that from the "helpie" the karmatic debtors are there for that specific reason, to collect... however i also believe that your intervention is a karmic debt as well... so do not fear helping! there are many secrets the universe has not revealed to us... there is a reason for this... and i can confidently say that to help with a good intended mind will always put "one good merit in the book" sort-of-speak... if you have to suffer someone elses "fated" suffering this is a great "blessing" actually... do not be afraid of your debt... try to find a way where you can pay and smile at the same time... buddhas take on others debts...

    om mani padme hum

http://www.webheights.net/depression/burns/fg.htm

There is a chapter for Mimosa on overcoming perfectionism!

##Boy!! tell me about it! even my boss called me a "perfectionist"

I should get that book

it is late, I will chat more on the helping others and get the karma topic. that was very interesting

Mimosa

Hi,Lyciss and Lian hua Dance,

    Well, I must say that you two are brave and kind souls!!
    The kind of advice that is popular in TBS circles that I came from are different(in terms of chanting, recomending mantras,anything that could effectively help others),it usually goes:
   1)Why bother abt others if you yourself is 'dark' and covered with karma,how could you help others when you yourself has karma on you?
   2)Wait till your heart could emit light(meaning attaining certain spiritual achievements), then come out to help ppl.If not,you would do more harm than help.So do your own practice and forget abt others till then.
   3) Don't get too involved with TBS local chapters, there are alot of "politicking" going on.
   4) Only help when within your capabilities.If not you would bring trouble to yourself.
   5)We ourselves are suffering, why bring upon ourselves the sufferings of others?It would not do them good nor ourselves good.

   What do you think of advices like these?

   Recently, I read GM's books and He advocates that we should go and give care and concern to others,especially to the poor, the helpless, the lonely,the ill, the handicapped,....He says we should set up a home to care for them.

   Any thoughts on this?

   However, dance, I do agree that I should follow through whatever I "promised" else it would be empty promise.

   Anyway, Lianhua dance, i don't deserve the praise of having a kind heart,I think anyone would do it. Won't you chant " Om ah bei la hum kan chala soha" (Manjusri deliverance mantra)to any dead animals, dead insects, ants, carcasses ,when you come accross them? Of course all of you will! Same situation here.:))

   On the subject of me developing powerful thoughts, I don't think that is the case.However, your reply does reminds me of something: I once had a consultation session with a TBS Master.He looked at my birthdate and remarked that I was born on a "yin" birthdate and that my thoughts could be easily
communicated to the spirits.He recommends that I chant Bu Dong Ming Wang's mantra( sorry, don't know the Buddha's English name)however, I did not really chant it. I wonder if this has something to do with the spirits knowing my thoughts.
But, I read one of GM's books and found that I was neither born in the "yin" month nor in the"yin" day.This is strange.

   About the book you mentioned, i think I would go and buy it.:))

   Lyciss, well, to be able to pay my karma debts and to smile is sometimes easier said than done.:))
   But,i do agree with you that when one helps, some of their karma would come to you.
    Hey , you are right , this is an interesting topic.
    Anyway, back to my friend's case, I really did think that he has no goals in life.

Regards
Xin Kai







   
   

4) Only help when within your capabilities.If not you would bring trouble to yourself.

##I only agree with #4, but I will elaborate more on that.

I have heard other above mentioned  comments before. It really bothered me when I first took refuge. I am a very Berkeley person (Dance knows what I meant). I think very differently from my own kind, and I refuse to be like them. You too also have choices. Dont let others' bad opinions influence you.

   What do you think of advices like these?
## they only say that because they dont need help now. they will tell you a different story when they need help.


  Any thoughts on this?
#that is exactly what you are doing :-) joining the translation team and doing what you can to help out.


Now, about #4. I used to help people a lot. However, people seemed to abuse my kindness  and I became very stressed out. At one point, I refused to help anybody. However, I think that  it is just too hard for me to refuse people :-( So, I learn to balance. I will help and educate the person at the same time. For example, say if a person needed a job, I used
to pick up a phone and got him/her a job. I dont do that anymore. The person ended up screwing up at work, I had to carry the consequence. Now, I ask people to study, search and pray. I will; however, give them advice.

That is what I meant by helping within ability

Of course, once a while, I do go out of my way to help out :-)

Mimosa

:)
 Free thoughts, a value at half the cost!

  1)Why bother abt others if you yourself is 'dark' and covered with karma,how could you help others when you yourself has karma on you?
 We all have karma on us (sort of like e-coli).  If you have a "why bother abt others" attitude, that is even more karma covering us.  Some guy recommended "compassion" - I can't remember who.  We can at least take off that layer!

   2)Wait till your heart could emit light(meaning attaining certain spiritual achievements), then come out to help ppl.If not,you would do more harm than help.So do your own practice and forget abt others till then.
Yeah right!  Wait until I have a million dollars, THEN give a guy a nickel!  I am sure there is a grain of truth here, but people use this grain of truth to justify selfishness, and I doubt this speeds them on the way to emitting light.  I think the grain of truth involves people ("do gooders") who use helping people as a way to bolster their egos - "I am so great because I do this and this and this and this - why I must be the most humble person who ever lived!".  I am sure much harm IS done in the name of doing good.  People have to look in their own hearts to know what they are up to.  People who "know" they have wonderful pure hearts will never look!

   3) Don't get too involved with TBS local chapters, there are alot of "politicking" going on.  
So don't get involved in the politicking.  Get involved in the cultivation.

   4) Only help when within your capabilities.If not you would bring trouble to yourself.
The only things we ever do are those that are within our capabilities.  But we can stretch our capabilities.  Things get stronger from being used and excercised.  Common sense recommended - we don't have to give away our homes to help the homeless.  That only creates one more homeless person (ourself)

   5)We ourselves are suffering, why bring upon ourselves the sufferings of others?It would not do them good nor ourselves good.
Well, it probably helps to keep an open mind about who is being helped by what.  If it turns out our busy activities are hurting others and ourselves, we are doing something wrong.  If we are doing things right, helping others helps them (that is why we call it helping others) and heaps good karma on us.

So there you have it, all your doubts succinctly answered with irrefutable logic.

lian hua dance

Yeah right!  Wait until I have a million dollars, THEN give a
#Dance, I sense Berkeley in you :-)
I fully agree with you on that one. I hear that all the time!! If I retire (too old), if I get the lottery (like it will happen to you), I will do some volunteer work. Simple BS. Just do what you can *right now* *right this moment* is what it counts!


##So don't get involved in the politicking.  Get involved in the cultivation.

I think the same way. Those who complain about politics all the time are the ones who put their noise into it!!

Mimosa

   

Hi, Dance,

   To be honest, I am probably speechless to most of your replies:)) ,
 
   We all have karma on us (sort of like e-coli).  If you have a "why bother abt others" attitude, that is even more karma covering us.  Some guy recommended "compassion" - I can't remember who.  We can at least take off that layer!

*I agree

   2)Wait till your heart could emit light(meaning attaining certain spiritual achievements), then come out to help ppl.If not,you would do more harm than help.So do your own practice and forget abt others till then.  
Yeah right!  Wait until I have a million dollars, THEN give a guy a nickel!  I am sure there is a grain of truth here, but people use this grain of truth to justify selfishness, and I doubt this speeds them on the way to emitting light.  I think the grain of truth involves people ("do gooders") who use helping people as a way to bolster their egos - "I am so great because I do this and this and this and this - why I must be the most humble person who ever lived!".  I am sure much harm IS done in the name of doing good.  People have to look in their own hearts to know what they are up to.  People who "know" they have wonderful pure hearts will never look!

* There is a certain truth in what you said.However,there are also some truth in what they said, especially when coming to matters of helping a person " spiritually"( or in any kind of help that is not visible to the eye).Much has been publicised abt this kind of cases where ppl do more harm in the name of doing good.Case story:A dharma brother and I were introduced to a new Dharma brother of TBS.This new Dharma brother told us his sad story.He says that he has been cheated by another fellow Dharma brother who claims that he is trained in Geomancy.This person rearranged his house according to "Feng shui" Principles and left. After that, he got into accident , hospitalised with a broken leg, his family members met with mishaps, their family lost big sums of money.He got so angry that he vowed to beat up this fellow when he sees him again.Of course, he is nowhere to be seen.What I described here is ony the tip of the iceberg.
   The point is if we are semi skilled ,half trained, not qualified enough in these methods ,or we are not up to that level then we shouldn't help other ppl in those fields.We make matters worse.Herein is the valid point that we should wait till we are able to emit light in our hearts , before we come out to help others.
   Still you are right, we should not let bad sheep affect the genuine heart in helping others.
   I think education in these matters are important.Especially when it comes to those kind of practices where it could not be seen by the naked eye.Although GM's books are available,there are still many who are ignorant.
   We all know how to help move sacks of rice in charity organisations and donate money and etc. ....Things that could be seen by the naked eye and understood by all is easy to do.
   However, in our desire to help other ppl achieve profound and lasting change, we often have to go into the root causes, which is to deal with their karma.
    This would lead to the scenario where you decide whether you want to step out and help with their karma.If you are not careful , not skilled,not up to the level, then you would have more casualties.
     I think the grain of truth refers to this situation.

   3) Don't get too involved with TBS local chapters, there are alot of "politicking" going on.  
So don't get involved in the politicking.  Get involved in the cultivation.


* I agree too.:))

   The only things we ever do are those that are within our capabilities.  But we can stretch our capabilities.  Things get stronger from being used and excercised.  Common sense recommended - we don't have to give away our homes to help the homeless.  That only creates one more homeless person (ourself)

* well said.

Well, it probably helps to keep an open mind about who is being helped by what.  If it turns out our busy activities are hurting others and ourselves, we are doing something wrong.  If we are doing things right, helping others helps them (that is why we call it helping others) and heaps good karma on us.

* I agree, but maybe I have reservations on helping others with their karma.Please refer to point 2 above.

There is also a old situation where our own family is a source of obstruction:
Say if I want to go to a local charity and help.If I tell my father this, he would say,"You dumb kid! We ourselves are in need of help, why you want to bother abt them? " or  " Everyone in this world thinks of oneself first,even heaven would punish those who doesn't think of oneself first"( ren bu wei ji ,tian zhu di mie)

Another friend of mine, who is also a Dharma Brother observed that this seems to be a tradition in Chinese or maybe Asian families: The idea is to help and benefit one's family members first, then extend it to relatives, then to friends. Seldom that one go out to help anyone that is not related by the same surname, or family first.

Now, point is how do you reconcile this with the teachings of GM who says that in our homes there are 1 Buddha and 1 Bodhisattava , one is your father , the other is your mother.
Treat them well and you would gain all merits?


Xin Kai
Regards

hmmm....

interesting ideas from Lianhua Dance... shall ponder over in my sleep

Hi, Dance,

"
We have the desire to "help others with their karma" - i.e. somehow not have the results of their past actions reach them.  On some level, this seems like it just won't work.  Law of Karma is not a law you can break when the police aren't around.  But, as a Law, that means whatever you do also fits into the pattern.  If you feel inclined to help an awful person who isn't doing anything at all (visible to you) to help himself, you are not operating outside the system.  They must have done SOMETHING at sometime that set something in action that ends up with you feeling moved to do something for them.  Their karma INCLUDES anything you do for them in a positive way, even if you can't see what they might have done to deserve your benevolence.  You CANNOT circumvent the system!  You could use this insight to randomly punch people, since it would be their karma to get punched by you - and you would be correct for that little piece of it.  The other piece is that you would have heaped on you the karma of randomly punching people.  

To use a Pali praise :" Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu!"

I think your point is good!
Could I say that when the condition is right, we would be "attracted" to this person who needs help, meaning his good karma ripens and for me helping him is to take part in making the good karma happen, bcos I am a part of his good karma as well?

So, could I also say that in this circumstances, we shouldn't take credit for any good that we have done, becos in actual fact, it is his/her deserving good karma?
I think this is another reason to be humble when helping others, apart from modesty.

Your point begs a question:If what I have done for someone is part of his/her good karma,then what happens to my Free will then?"
Sorry I am not asking question for the sake of asking question, I am just curious.:))

"There is a bumper sticker out in this part of the earth that encourages people to "practice random acts of kindness" - setting up whirling flows of good karma surprises that may come back unexpectedly. ... "

You know in many parts of the world, this kind of thinking is unheard of.Usually the "every man for himself" attitude is dorminant.Hey, this attitude exist in TBS chapters too!!
If not, we would have Care centres and Homes for the helpless long time ago!! There would be no need for GM to write about this anymore!!



 Maybe, stepping out on a limb, maybe the reticence to help on the external plane comes from more cultural history dealing with inner planes?  More experience with "helping" backfiring?  Or it is just universal difficulty in understanding interdependence, despite hundreds of years of Buddhism - we have relationship with everyone already, not something we can avoid by limiting our sphere of exoteric influence.

Sorry, I don't quite understand your first point abt " cultural history dealing with inner planes" , what do you mean specifically?

Sigh! Probably ppl understand interdependence more when it hit their pockets.When they have to pay higher for gasoline due to something going on in the Middle East, then interdependence hits home. :))

I think in many parts of the world, the "Global Village" idea(  
another view of interdependence?)
is still a foreign one.


Regards
Xin Kai

Hi, Lyciss,

   I think what you wrote is more useful to me than to my friend!!
   After you give yourself a goal, do you have a little voice inside you that constantly tries to sabotage it?
   Sometimes the voice could be so overwhelming that it drowns out everything!
   I think for my friend's case, I might have misinterpreted his condition.I think he is suffering from depression, after I read a new book.Maybe a severe one.
  It's more than what I have said and what you suggested, he always shows a "sick" look, no energy, a general look of
a "dying " person.
   Maybe  I should get him to see a Psychiatrist.

Regards
Xin Kai    

Xin,
    yea from what you first mentioned, i wasnt under the impression that it was that far... yes perhaps you should get him some serious help... it could be physical health problems that only a doctor or Grand Master can fix... even might have an attached spirit draining his life force... not to scare you but its possible... so perhaps you should make a goal to get him a medical opinion and not to worry about cost... its far more expensive to try to bring your friend back from something that could of been prevented if it had been discovered...

      om mani padme hum