raychin08/13/02 at 22:21:58#1What happens after u become enlightened and die? u cease the cycle of life and death, but what happens to u? is there a soul? i read some books and Buddha said that there isn't one. but in some of translations of Grandmaster's the word soul is used. can someone explain this to me? if there is a soul then it suggests that there is a permanent entity that exists. where as Buddhism says that all things in the universe are interdependent. Thanks.
Last edited 08/14/02 at 10:37:38 by Buddhafly
Lyciss08/15/02 at 02:11:49#2Re: Is there a soul?Hey Raychin,
this is my favorite topic... to get right down to it there are infact two aspects i have to mention at first... the first is what do you mean by soul? unending, unchanging entity... if you go by that then there isnt such a thing, acording to the buddha... however i think the purpose of saying that is an attempt to explain "self"... secondly what would it consist of? and my only conclusion would have to be consciousness and thats it... i dont think my "soul" would look like me, for one that would discount mulitple lives... well then again i do have a hard time hiding my dorsal fin sometimes... so anyways, if its consciousness, what is consciousness? simply awareness, the experience, the moment... nothing tangible...
so on the flip side since mulitple lives applies, (according to if you belive so) you can even go as far as to say you are not really you... but then what is really you? this question is a famous Zen buddhist question... if i have been human many times or animals how can i say that was me or is me? since even me will transcarnate into another...
if i remember right the buddha used the word Atman... and horribly translated into soul... but i think its real meaning is to say, there is no "permanent self that is unchanging" which so happens to match up with the word soul... i think the real difinition for soul should be consciousness, since its the only thing that transcarnates from life to life... however consciousness is like form, feeling, perception and intention... empty of any real nature of its own and anything that has no nature of its own is subject to change...
so to answer your question accordingly... you have a soul if you consider it consciousness... if you believe it to be an unending, unchanging deathless entity then you are in conflict with what the buddha explained...
the way i think of it is, life is change, without change life would be boring and it simply wouldnt be worth living... lol
hope this helps...
any thoughts?
om mani padme hum
raychin08/15/02 at 14:18:19#3Re: Is there a soul?hey.
thanks lyciss. that explains it. i guess it was a bad translation. what happens when u become a Buddha? is your atman still changing?
Lyciss08/15/02 at 16:05:44#4Re: Is there a soul?Raychin,
a Buddha still has consciousness however there is no clinging to it so form, feeling, perception and intention dont arise and as a result there is no birth or becomming... this to me also dosent mean non-exsistant... the consciousness is still there and capible of taking a form but its different than the forms we have... ours are due to our karma and we become that form not free to choose... a buddha is free from these karmic effects but arent much different in terms of a soul (consciousness)...
so does a buddha's consciousness change? yea if it didnt change then you would say, once you become a buddha thats when you get a true soul... but this simply isnt the case...
everything changes... your body changes from moment to moment even tho its difficult to see... but cells in your body are constantly being replaced by new cells... the same is true for your consciousness... its like this...
lets say you have a lamp made out of clay... and you skillfully chiped out a chunk of this lamp then filled in the hole with some new clay... do this process over and over and eventually the lamp would completely be replaced with new clay... now if someone were to ask you, is this the original lamp? its not but it appears to be... how could you say its the same lamp since the material it was originally made from is no longer there... the only thing that maybe the same is its shape... (ignore all the cracks because you are great with clay, lol) well this is the same as your body... its never the same from moment to moment because we are always being chipped away and replaced with new clay...
om mani padme hum
Last edited 08/15/02 at 17:34:10 by Lyciss
Buddhafly08/24/02 at 11:57:08#5Re: Is there a soul?
EBooks:Encounters With The World of Spirits
What Is The Soul?
What is the soul? This is a question that has puzzled mankind for thousands of years and no one, as yet, has come up with a detailed and satisfactory answer to it. Some people hold the opinion that the soul is something invisible and untouchable, which may or may not exist. Some feel that, even if the soul exists, it exerts no influence whatsoever on the living person, and if it does not exist, then it is even less worthy of study.
Is the soul really not worthy of study? Many people are curious about the nature of the soul, yet few have access to the answer. Is the soul really invisible and untouchable? Many people answer "yes" to the question, although they really do not know. I would like to boldly make a startling statement to the reader, "You are the soul." What is the soul? You are the soul! Why is it that being the soul oneself, one does not know nor realize that one is actually the soul? Where then is the soul hidden?
There is this account in the Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva Original Vows Sutra: The Holy Maiden asked the Ghost King named Poisonless,
"Where is Hell?"
Poisonless answered, "Within the three seas are hundreds of thousands of great hells; each one is different."
The Holy Maiden again asked the Ghost King, "My mother has not been dead long. Do you know where her soul has gone to?"
In this sutra, there is a reference made by the Holy Maiden to the soul and the inference is that the soul continues to exist after a person dies. But, why is it that a person cannot see the soul when alive? My answer is, when man is born, the soul becomes surrounded by the external visible shell, and the soul loses its consciousness. When living in the visible world, man becomes dependent on all tangible forms. During this time, the soul can be said to be dormant. Although it dwells inside the body, it has lost its awareness; it is as if it is not there. Therefore, people take the illusory to be reality and believe the physical body is the true self. The soul remains silent, dormant until the day the physical body dies. Then the soul gradually reawakens, becoming active again. Herein lies the principle of rebirth and reincarnation. The cycles of birth and death continue endlessly. Taoist and Buddhist practitioners today are cultivating the transcendence of the soul over birth and death, not the longevity of the physical body.
Therefore, one cannot experience one's soul while alive, because one's soul is dormant. There are probably people who still doubt this and find it hard to accept. But, imagine this, if one's soul is awake and conscious while one is still physically alive, what kind of world would such a person experience?
This kind of realm is understood by only a very few people. Only when a person has reached the realm when his soul is conscious, can he understand what the soul is. Only then can such a person be qualified to use spiritual power to do divination. And what a wonderful experience that is!
According to my knowledge, souls exist everywhere.
They exist in the hills and woods, in rivers and oceans, in residences of living people (Yang abodes) and those of dead people (cemeteries or Yin abodes), in busy market places and even inside the human body. A soul can expand to cover the sky and earth, or it can contract to hide inside a grain of sand, a speck of dust, or a water droplet. There are also different types of souls: those of Buddhas, gods, humans, ghosts, and demons. This knowledge has come from my direct observations and not from any other source. The most important question is what is the soul? To me, the soul feels like a stream of "phi," a stream of "energy," or a kind of "transformation." What is the soul made up of? Since I am not a scientist, I cannot analyze this, but I can detect the soul's existence and to me it feels like "electricity" and "radiation."
Normally, the visible world is inhabited by men and myriad material things, and the invisible world is inhabited by souls. Souls in the world of spirits can have knowledge of the visible world, whereas it is very difficult for men to understand the invisible world. This is the reason why researchers who are studying the soul still have not been able to unlock the riddle. Although there are some people whose souls are conscious and can communicate with the realm of the spirits, such people are usually ridiculed as mentally ill, imagining things, or actually hallucinating. Indeed, such experiences can be sensed, but not explained in words. A description of the truth and mystery of the soul can never evoke a direct experience of it. People who are interested should seek to learn firsthand about the world of the spirits. The world of spirits and the visible world are not just neighbors to each other, but are related far more intimately. We have come from the world of spirits and shall return to the world of spirits. Men also live together with the spirits, so how can we say that there is no connection between the two? One can manoeuver power from the world of spirits to accomplish many great tasks. Perhaps the reader still does not believe me, but if one will just read further, I will reveal the secrets in the rest of this book.
Lyciss08/24/02 at 23:09:11#6Re: Is there a soul?hey Bren,
thankx for sharing that... which book is it from? i remember reading it before but i didnt remember all the details that were discribed in it... i would like to read the rest...
om mani padme hum
Buddhafly08/25/02 at 21:47:35#7Re: Is there a soul?
Encounters With The World of Spirits
E-book on TBSN
Lyciss08/26/02 at 06:37:25#8Re: Is there a soul?Thanks Bren...
i read it quite some time ago... i dont think there is anything on tbsn that i have not read over... sometimes i would spend days straight reading over Grandmaster's writings... the Dharma can be addicting... it has changed me lots from the person i was, all for the best ofcourse... and not only that but many questions i had were answered nicely and some beyond what ive even considered...
ok ill stop rambling...
om mani padme hum
darrellmc08/26/02 at 13:47:36#9Re: Is there a soul?I like the analogy of a candle. If one takes a candle and lights another candle with it, then blows out the first candle, is it a different flame or the same flame? Far as that goes, if you watch the same candle burn all the way down, is it the same flame at any moment as it was the moment before?
And most puzzling of all...when you blow it out, where does it go? :-/
Lyciss08/26/02 at 14:20:17#10Re: Is there a soul?Darrellmc,
thats it, exactly... very good! yea ive heard that same anology of a candle before, but it temporarily left my memory until you resparked it... lol hey look theres another anology... if i had the memory but i didnt remember until something reminded me, where did the memory go? or when you say you forgot, what is forgetting?
there is another...
the soul and reincarnation can be explained using a cup and inside the cup is some tea... the cup is the body which holds the consciousness or the soul which is the tea... when the cup breaks (body dies) the tea is not harmed and simply flows out and goes naturally where it will until it recieves a new container... however where ever it goes it always remains tea... just like the mind after death...
om mani padme hum
Last edited 08/26/02 at 14:23:22 by Lyciss
Buddhafly08/26/02 at 17:46:28#11Re: Is there a soul?
Darrell!
Welcome to Padma Forum!
Darrell was my mentor on TBSN and a very good friend whom I have a special "karmic" link to! :)
Please all extend a warm welcome to him.
Bren
mimosa08/28/02 at 17:09:55#12Re: Is there a soul?Darrell finally spoke!! very good!!!
Darrell and I are long-term friends. He helped me so much to establish TBSN. He played an important role in the TBSN history. Now, I wish that he will do the same with padma!
Mimosa